Building a Blisteringly Raw Character Study Through Investigation and Improvisation: Mike Leigh and Marianne Jean-Baptiste Chat 'Hard Truths'

"Why can't you enjoy life?": when that line arrives in Hard Truths, it's not only a haunting moment within the latest film from British writer/director Mike Leigh, but the same from any movie in the past few years. First, the perennially depressed, angry and disillusioned — and also agoraphobic, paranoid, confrontational and hypochondriac — Pansy (Marianne Jean-Baptiste, Surface) utters it, giving voice to the accusations that she felt were directed her way by her late mother. Pansy's sister Chantelle (Michele Austin, Boat Story) then repeats it back, but as her own question, asking someone so clearly always in pain why such hurt, unhappiness and fury is her default status.

"It was the combination of a lot of improvisations and preparation. It just came out of the blue," Jean-Baptiste tells Concrete Playground about that piece of dialogue. "It was obviously months of rehearsing and developing the characters that led up to it." She continues: "it just summed up the frustration that Chantelle has with her sister Pansy, but also I think something releases for Pansy when she actually answers truthfully." Leigh sees it as "part of the investigation of the relationship", he advises. "The moment, like all the moments — and all the action and all the dialogue and everything else — came out of the whole exploratory process of making the film by finding out what the film is on the journey of making it."

As all projects by the iconic filmmaker are — across an on-screen resume that started with 1971's Bleak Moments; saw Jean-Baptiste nominated for a Best Supporting Actress Oscar for Leigh's Secrets & Lies in 1996; and also covers Life Is Sweet, Naked, Career Girls, Vera Drake, Happy-Go-Lucky, Another Year, Mr Turner, Peterloo and more — the London-set Hard Truths was built from the ground up with his collaborators. His famed method of working involves casting first, constructing characters one on one with his actors sans script, tasking them with improvising the dialogue and, along the way, finding the storyline while only telling the members of his ensemble what they each need to know to play their parts. Here, the result is a two-time BAFTA nominee, including for Best Actress for its lead, who won the same category at the British Independent Film Awards. Alongside standing out as a portrait of the daily lives of a Black British family, a rarity in cinemas, Hard Truths is also a stunning study of a character who holds onto her agony, fears, rage and exasperation so tightly inside, and unleashes it so frequently at anyone and everyone in her vicinity.

Pansy's contented salon-owner sister — a single mother with two daughters, one training to be a lawyer (Sophia Brown, Dead Shot) and the other in cosmetics (Ani Nelson, One Day) — isn't the only target of her distress. Hard Truths' protagnist's husband Curtley (David Webber, My Lady Jane) and adult son Moses (Tuwaine Barrett, Back to Black) are as visibly weary from attempting to cope as Pansy clearly is. Jean-Baptiste describes the character as "somebody who is in a lot of pain, but doesn't quite know where it's coming from. There's a lot of fear as well. It's 'attack before I'm attacked'. She's petrified of life and it manifests itself in a very aggressive way". If her performance hardly feels like one — not that she's Pansy IRL for a second — that's again a result of Leigh's process. "Michele Austin and I, obviously we've worked together before with Mike, but we would get into a room and Mike would talk to us about the girls. And so we had to build their parallel history," she explains, offering one example of how such fully realised characters came about.

"Their parents, their grandparents, where they lived in London, what schools they went to, the bus route to their schools. How did they get there? Did they walk? Did they have to go past the park? And then we go and find that in London. So located it, so there's a visual memory of what that would have looked like, and that continues and continues until we get to a point — we do birthdays, parties, holidays, all that information. So imagine when you're in an improvisation a month and a half later, you've got all this stuff, all this wonderful history, all these experiences, that you can pull on at any given point within the improvs. So that's how that works." And yes, across a resume that also spans The Cell, City of Ember, the RoboCop remake, In Fabric, seven seasons of Without a Trace, Broadchurch, Blindspot, Homecoming and much more, Jean-Baptiste advises that she's benefited from Leigh's approach even when he's not her director.

What appeals to Leigh, one of cinema's great excavators of life's complexities — struggles, joys and everything in-between — about investigating humanity through his work, and collaborating with his cast to create characters that feel like they could've walked off the street and into his movies? And what has driven him to do so for more than half a century? "It comes naturally to me. As a little kid, I was drawing caricatures of the grown-ups," he notes. "I don't make movies about movies. I love watching movies, but that's separate from the films that I make. I am not interested in received notions of plot and structure or anything else. For me, film — and indeed theatre, when I do stage plays, including in Australia — it's about a way to look at real life. People say to me 'where do your ideas come from?'. Well, I've only got to walk down the street and there are ten, 12, 20, 50, 100 films, because it's people, and that's really what it's about for me, basically."

With Leigh and Jean-Baptiste reuniting for Hard Truths not only after Secrets & Lies and collaborating for the stage, but after Jean-Baptiste composed the score for Leigh's Career Girls, too, we also chatted with the pair about their working relationship, Leigh's starting point with each project, getting into and out of character, and the challenges and freedoms of his process, among other topics. What continues to inspire them and what they make of their respective careers: we spoke with the two about that as well.

On Building Pansy as a Character Over Months and Months

Marianne: "Mike asks you to come to the first session, where he works with you one on one, and to have a list of people from real life, real-life people that you know. And you start talking about all of these people and a list is formed, and the list gets smaller and smaller and smaller.

So it's important to ground the characters in reality. And from that point, it's a stepping off point, because the character changes. For example, if you have three people, you've taken characteristics from those three people and you've merged them, what you would then do is start from scratch and build a new character — from their first memory to the age they're going to play when you actually see them in the film.

In that process, you start to, with Mike always — he takes the position of god, he makes the decisions that none of us can make for ourselves — so with Mike, there's a collaboration whereby he asks lots of questions and you start filling in answers to who this person is. And then things that you wouldn't be able to decide, he makes those decisions. And in doing so, the disappointments, the heartbreaks and things like that, start to build in that person's life.

So on a simplistic level, you could say that she is a combination of all of the bad experiences she's had — some real, some imaginary."

Mike: "It's a difficult question to answer, really. Because obviously at one level, such people resonate for me — just as for everybody else, no doubt, including you — with experiences that you've had. What we do on my films, and this film is absolutely no exception, is I collaborate with each actor to give birth to a character.

And drawing on various things, including some people that Marianne Jean-Baptiste actually knows, we evolved the basis of the character, which then grew."

Marianne: "My experience in life. Observation. Being fascinated by human beings. That's the sort of thing that I generally draw on. And just knowing that — it's like being a kid again, almost — knowing that I'm absolutely free to imagine and create.

One of my first jobs out of drama school, actually, was doing a Mike Leigh play — and it's exactly the same process, but it was early enough in my career to influence the way that I approached my work and almost approach life in that sort of people-watching way, and just being fascinated. So I think that just being in a safe environment where that was okay to make stuff up, and to pull stuff from my imagination is acceptable.

I think you're just in-character in this process. We warm up into character and we snap out of it quite quickly. But as I said, it really is the culmination of months and months of working. We rehearsed for three and a half months — and that's a short rehearsal process for Mike.

So if you can imagine, that's months of building layers and layers and layers. So there's every disappointment she's had. There's everything that she hoped for but didn't achieve. There's every slight or perceived slight that she's had. There's that idea that nobody listens to her, nobody values her, nobody likes her.

So that's going on for three and a half bloody months. So by the time you get to those sort of scenes, it's like it's all there — it's all there already."

On Reteaming Not Only After Secrets & Lies, But After Stage Collaborations and Jean-Baptiste Composing the Score for Leigh's Career Girls

Mike: "We did work together 30 years, 31 years ago, in a stage play. And then of course, she was famously in Secrets & Lies, in which, incidentally, in both of those projects she paired with Michele Austin, who plays her sister in this film.

It's a long time since Secrets and Lies, and I wanted to work with her — and she with me — for a long time. Often it's the case that you want to work with an actor and they're actually very busy doing other things.

Finally we said 'well, let's go for it. Let's do it'. We were going to make the film sooner, but the pandemic put paid to that."

Marianne: "I think he's very bold. He's a bold storyteller. He loves people and he loves actors. And I think, as an actor you have more agency working with him than you do with most other types of work. It's truly collaborative — and collaborative all round with production design, with hair and makeup. Everybody works together and everybody's on the same page about the way that they're going to approach the work.

I think we've got a very similar sense of humour, so that really helps as well."

On Leigh's Starting Point with His Actors on Each Film

Mike: "I work individually, separately and privately with each actor. And part of the deal with these films is that the actors take part, agree to take part, and the deal is you'll never know anything about the rest of it, except what your character knows.

So they're all working, as it were, in isolation from each other. And I sit down at some length, with quite a lot of sessions, with each actor, and we talk about real people and gradually we talk into existence the basis of the character. So that's the starting point.

Then it's about putting them together and exploring relationships, and building up the world and doing any research that needs to be done — into activities or work or whatever it is. To arrive at something that is completely organic and three-dimensional, and is also thus the basis of a film, which then, during the shooting period, we construct as we go along scene by scene, sequence by sequence, location by location, arriving at the end."

On Ensuring That Leigh's Cast Can Step Out of Their Characters, Especially Someone as Complicated as Pansy, When Each Scene and Day Ends

Marianne: "It's hard to shake in that you still keep, it's still there in your head working. Mike's very, very strict about coming out of character. So there's a whole protocol on-set about warming up into character and warming down.

But with Pansy, because of the intrusive thoughts that the character had, obviously you have to create that thought process for yourself in order to play it. So it took a while for me to shut her up."

Mike: "As soon as we start to get the characters on the go, I'm very strict, right from the beginning. But actors should warm up and get into character, be absolutely in-character when they're in-character, but as soon as we stop — which is to say not at the end of the day, but each improvisation or whatever it is — to come out of character. So the actor is then able to be objective about what happened in the improvisation or about the character.

I'm also very strict that the actor, when talking about the character, refers to the character as 'him' or 'her, not 'I' — which a lot of actors, as you know, do, they talk about 'I' and there's a crossing of wires. So that's really a discipline.

And that's what you're talking about, to be sure the actor can be totally in it when in it, but totally comfortable and not screwed up when not in it."

On the Challenges and Freedoms of Leigh's Approach

Marianne: "It's exhilarating, terrifying and freeing — all those wonderful things. There's nothing else like it, being able to work in this way. There were times when you feel like crying, because you're like 'what on earth am I doing? What is this?'. And then you see it, you see the result and you go 'oh my god'.

Because obviously, because everybody's working individually on their characters, you don't know what's happening. The first time I saw the film, I was able to see what happened in the beauty salon, and what Curtley did at work and where Moses went, and what the nieces were like.

So it's like, for us, it's like discovering the film for the first time. It's wonderful is all I can say."

Mike: "It's totally a combination of the two. It's certainly challenging. Here's the thing: if they say 'okay, here's five or six million pounds and you've got to deliver a film', that is quite a lot of responsibility on your shoulders, of course.

It's challenging, but it's highly stimulating. And the freedom of there being no preconceptions or interference or prescriptions from the streamers or the producers or anybody — the backers or the whoever — it's very liberating. Frightening, yes, but then the creative process is dangerous in any context. But liberating. It's wonderful.

If I were to ever — many times over the years, the opportunity has come to make a film with certain provisos. 'You have to have a Hollywood star in it.' 'We have to be able to monitor it.' 'You can't have final cut.' All that stuff. Well, I'll just walk away. It just doesn't happen, basically. Which then liberates the freedom to do what artists should do."

On How Leigh Works with His Cast to Ensure That Whether or Not the Audience Has Lived a Character's Life, They Feel Recognisable

Mike: "You can't underestimate the contribution of the actor. The actor's intelligence, sensitivity, perception, talent.

I only work with character actors, which is to say people that don't just play themselves in a narcissistic way, but actually are up for and want to detect, depict and portray real people out on the street. And so my job is to facilitate and to contribute in terms of the narrative ideas — but in the end, what you're asking about relies primarily on her ability to to act, create, empathise, project, distill and investigate all those aspects of the character.

There are actors who are, on the whole, good actors, but are not very intelligent. There are actors who are fine actors that have no sense of humour. There are actors who, as I've already said, are not character actors. Marianne Jean-Baptiste, like all the actors in this film, has all of those qualities, not least a sense of character and a sense of humour, and therefore has the ability to get inside different sorts of people and really, really bring it to life."

On How Cognisant That Jean-Baptiste and Leigh Were About Hard Truths Standing Out as a Portrait of the Daily Lives of a Black British Family

Marianne: "No, we were not aware of it while we were making it. We were aware that there's a predominantly all-black cast, but you obviously don't know what the story is.

So you know it's going to be something to do with family and stuff, but yeah, it's a bonus that it's something that people can be proud of and say 'yeah, great, so refreshing'."

Mike: "That was a deliberate decision. It wasn't, in no way, a difficult decision, because I just approached the characters and the world and the issues and the emotions and the relationships in this film just as I have every other film I've made, including the period films — which is to say these are people and we're looking at them as people in a real way.

However, I was very definitely consciously aware that we were not going to deal in all those cliche tropes that films about Black people on the whole deal with, because that's not what it's about as far as I'm concerned.

For me, I would say — and you're no doubt familiar with other films of mine — across all of my films, it's a collection of different aspects of society, but all looking at people as individual, real people. And this film is, if you like, the mere continuation of that ongoing investigation."

On Reflecting the Reality of Life by Making a Film That's Both Deeply Moving and Has a Sense of Humour

Mike: "It's not a balancing act at all. Life is comic and tragic. Whatever you do, whether you like it or not — how many times have you not laughed at a funeral? Life just comes out of the soil, ready-made comic and tragic. So for me, I don't sit around thinking 'oh, maybe there should be a comic moment' or 'maybe this should be a tragic moment'. That looks after itself, and it certainly looks after itself in this film.

It's a barrel of laughs, hopefully, for a good section, a good chunk of the film. And then — and we've had quite a number of public screenings of the film, and you could absolutely chart precisely where the laughter dies away, and it's obvious why that is.

It's not a question of balance. It's a question of the truth of what you're depicting and what you're investigating, what you're sharing with the audience and what the audience experiences."

On What Inspires Jean-Baptiste and Leigh About a New Project

Marianne: "At this point in my life, I'm looking for challenges. I'm looking for something that I can transform myself — something that's going to be fun. For me, that's it. Are they good people? Will it be fun? Will it be challenging in a good way, you know?"

Mike: "To me, it's always exciting. It's partly, to be honest, because I don't know what we're going to do and therefore there are all sorts of possibilities. And my head is buzzing with all sorts of possibilities and ideas — 'maybe we'll get him', 'maybe we'll get her to the party'.

Then, of course, it's the anticipation and the enjoyment of actually working with people, and making it and making the thing happen. And shooting and working with the actors, all that's just, to me, a joy.

Here's the thing that's important: the way I make films is the same way but is parallel to people writing novels, painting pictures, making music, making sculpture, writing poetry, et cetera — which is to say that the artist embarks on a journey of investigation, and discovers what the piece is on the journey of making it. They interact with the material.

How many novelists have you heard say 'well, I didn't know what was going to happen, and then somehow the character told me what needed to happen next'? That's really what I do. The privilege I feel I have that painters and novelists, et cetera, don't have, is that I'm not stuck in a room by myself. It's a collaborative, socially pleasurable activity."

In Fabric

On What Jean-Baptiste and Leigh Each Make of Their Careers So Far

Marianne: "I think it's interesting. I think I've had quite an interesting career. I've forgotten some stuff that I've done — it's gotten to that stage where people go 'oh that film' and I go 'oh yeah'.

Yes, I think it's been a bit of an interesting one, mine, that's taken me to a few different places. I've been able to be quite selective in the last say five or ten years, which is good."

Peterloo

Mike: "Well, on the whole, if I was to sum it all up, I think I've been very lucky, actually, really. There've been breaks at times, which made it possible to do the crazy thing I do, which is to say to backers or theatre managers: 'I have no idea what we're going to do. I will not discuss casting. And please don't interfere with it while we're doing it at any stage'. And one could be forgiven for imagining that on that basis, I might never have done anything.

So I've been lucky in that sense, and I guess the honest answer to your question is that, really — that I've found it remarkable that I've kind of got away with it."

Hard Truths opened in Australian cinemas on Thursday, March 6, 2025 and New Zealand cinemas on Thursday, March 13, 2025.