Overview
Grief. Asking for forgiveness. Moving forward. Thematically, that's the initial three-season plan for Shrinking, Apple TV+'s Jason Segel (Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty)-, Harrison Ford (Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny)- and Jessica Williams (Road House)-starring comedy series about therapists endeavouring to help their patients while rarely having all of the answers to their own problems. Audiences will get to see at least that journey from this kind-hearted gem, which was co-created by TV veteran Bill Lawrence fresh off Ted Lasso's success, teaming up with the soccer-themed hit's Brett Goldstein, aka Roy Kent, as well as Segel. Just as Shrinking's second season started airing in mid-October 2024, the show was renewed for a third season.
"That is the beginning, middle and end of this story, without a shadow of a doubt. And I think people know from what I do that there has to be an undercurrent of hope and optimism in there," Lawrence tells Concrete Playground. "I'm not going to say everything would be nicely cut and dried, but I'm not sure people would ever watch my shows again if the end of this was 'Jimmy moved into the mountains and decided to be sad and alone forever'. You know what I mean? 'Don't even bother trying!'."
Lawrence, who was also behind Spin City in the 90s, Scrubs and Cougar Town in the 00s, plus 2024 newcomer Bad Monkey, isn't saying that's all there'll be to Shrinking's on-screen journey — there's a way forward if, once season three rolls around, it earns another renewal again from there. "We knew that that was the end of this particular story. I think that's what's fun about television now, is you tell stories with a beginning, middle and end. Doesn't mean that the show can't go on, it just means if we go beyond these three seasons, I treat it like a book," he advises. "Bad Monkey, there's another book by Carl Hiaasen with some of the same characters, at least the ones that aren't dead. It's a completely new story, with a completely new inception point, and I love it just as much as the previous one. So I love the idea of doing that with a TV show like this, hopefully."
Since its early 2023 debut, Shrinking has spent its time with Segel's Jimmy Laird, Ford and Williams as his colleagues Paul Rhoades and Gaby Evans, plus Jimmy's teenage daughter Alice (Lukita Maxwell, AfrAId), best friend Brian (Michael Urie, Goodrich), patient Sean (Luke Tennie, CSI: Vegas), and neighbours Liz (Christa Miller, Head of the Class) and Derek (Ted McGinley, The Baxters). When the show began its tale, Jimmy was consumed by loss and pain after the death of his wife in a car accident. With Alice, he'd largely been absent since tragedy changed their lives forever, and his friends had been picking up the slack. With the folks paying him for his professional assistance, Jimmy then began trying to push them out of their comfort zones.
"I think one of the things that actually was a real breakthrough for me from participating in the show is understanding that one of the real pitfalls of therapy is getting caught in a weekly loop of talking about your problems, but not actually trying to change them. I hadn't really thought of that," Segel explains. "You have people who've been in therapy for years and years and years, but haven't really made any progress. And so I think that that's one of the things that was frustrating Jimmy, is feeling like his patients were caught in a rut — and 'what do I start doing to change your behaviour? What do we do that's actionable today?'. So that's been really cool, and I think it's been cool for the viewers, too, to think about it in that way."
Shrinking is another of Lawrence's series with hug-inducing levels of warmth at its core, as Ted Lasso was so welcomely. As with Scrubs, it finds both deep emotion and humour in healthcare's vicinity. And as everything on his resume since Spin City has been, it's about the families that we make not just through the bonds of blood. Vulnerability sits at its heart, too, which Segel appreciates, especially as the Freaks and Geeks, Forgetting Sarah Marshall, How I Met Your Mother star's concept of what that means has evolved over his quarter-century-plus acting career. "I think that my idea of vulnerability has become more sophisticated as I have gotten older," he notes. "When I was a young man, to me the most-vulnerable thing was doing full-frontal nudity during a breakup, and that's just literally vulnerable. But I think that in this show, I've started to realise more and more that real grown-up vulnerability is saying 'I'm afraid' or saying 'I'm struggling and I need help'. Asking for help, what a vulnerable thing. And so I think that you'll see a lot of characters committing real acts of vulnerability and bravery by asking each other for help."
Shrinking's 12-episode second season picks up with Jimmy being confronted with consequences from his new strategy for therapy, and Alice — and everyone else — concerned that he'll return to his self-destructive spiral. As it digs into seeking not just assistance but forgiveness, it also brings Goldstein (The Garfield Movie) in front of the camera, and forces its characters to begin reckoning with what it truly means to even think about allowing yourself to forge a path beyond past sorrows, mistakes and fears.
How does Lawrence approach his now-trademark mix of emotional complexity and comedy, including while championing kindness? How crucial is Segel's involvement, especially in conveying details that don't need to be written on the page? And how did Ford come to be onboard? What does Segel learn working beside the acting icon — and how does he tackle a project when he's so intricately involved off-screen? We chatted to Lawrence and Segel about all of the above and more.
On Making Sitcoms with Emotional Complexity, Including Ted Lasso and Shrinking Both Heroing Kindness, Self-Belief and Asking for Help
Bill: "Everybody that you get to talk to that does what I do, they without a doubt had influences and idolised different shows and writers when they grew up. And for me, I grew up on that type of TV. People forget, because they aren't as old as I am, M*A*S*H was this show that was like the biggest show in America — a sitcom that would be broad and silly and goofy, and it would turn on a dime and you would find yourself sobbing about a patient that passes away or a story that you didn't see coming. You'd just get blindsided. And I always gravitated to TV like that.
Even The Office, which I think is so brilliant and silly, and Michael Scott is a ridiculous character, they somehow found ways that he could still turn on a switch and hit you emotionally.
I like shows like 30 Rock and Veep, which are a testament to amazing joke-writing, and sardonic and satire, and I wish I could do them — I can't.
But I got very lucky. I knew with the show Scrubs that I wanted to try and do this, and see if you could do shows with big comedy that then would maybe sometimes have hairpin curves into emotional depth. And I remember when I tried to sell Scrubs, one of the executives that I sell to said 'I'm not sure you can do broad, silly comedies and then make people care — like, a fantasy, and then make people care if a patient lives or dies or not'. And I used to say 'I think you can, if you just turn the lights down and play some indie music'.
I was joking, but it turned out to be right. I think there's a lot of people out there that laugh their way through pain, and I think that's why maybe sometimes these shows work, hopefully."
On Shrinking's Focus on a Therapist Trying to Help Others While Needing Help Himself
Jason: "I think that just on its face, the premise of somebody practising therapy while they themselves are going through a nervous breakdown is an electric idea. That's what comedy is, right? It's setting up these two opposing walls, and comedy is the space in between.
Forgetting Sarah Marshall's about a guy trying to get over a breakup and running into his ex and her new boyfriend. It's these things in opposition to each other. So someone trying to help other people get well while they themselves are not well, it's just a great place to start."
On the Balancing Act Between Silly Comedic Moments and Deep Emotion That Touches Audiences
Bill: "It could be disastrous. I'll tell you right now, the stuff I've done in my career that's failed, have failed because of our inability to navigate those moments, and it just ends up seeming inauthentic.
And without patting myself on the back, because I have very little to do with it, there's a chemistry to a TV show. Shows like this work often because the cast, there's actors and actresses top to bottom on Shrinking and on Ted Lasso and on Scrubs that have the ability to be making you laugh and being goofy and silly one second, and then to literally gather themselves and take a breath, and be pulling at your heartstrings the next.
It's a special talent for actors and actresses. One of the great gifts of this stage of my career is getting to watch Harrison Ford do that. I knew what a great actor he was. I didn't know how funny he was. And I certainly didn't know how smooth he'd be at making the turn from one spot to another."
Jason: "I think that we try to stay, if this makes sense, as true to life as possible, because my experience of life is it's not a whole bunch of hugging and learning. It's clunky and awkward, and the great thing about having friends you really trust and believe in is, yeah, there's some hugging and learning, but there's also a whole lot of 'get off your ass, we're going out to dinner'. There's a lot of 'dump that guy, he's a you-know-what?', as opposed to sitting around moping. 'Let's get revenge on him', you know.
This is the way I think we actually behave — we make each other laugh and we hold each other by the hand and drag each other along. And so I actually think it's easier than it might seem, that the more honestly you write, the funnier it is."
On Getting Harrison Ford for His First Main Role in a TV Comedy — and Learning From Him
Bill: "I gave him my soul. He's a mystical creature and I signed my soul away. No, he's not.
It's still crazy. When I was 25, I created the show Spin City with my mentor with Gary Goldberg, and the fact that Michael J Fox was doing it, I couldn't comprehend it. It was the first big job I ever had and he turned out to be exactly the type of person that you would hope he would be being a fan.
And I did not expect to have that experience again as a guy in my 50s. And Harrison, to his credit, he's like 'yo, man, I'm trying new stuff. I've never done a TV show. I've never done a comedy'. A couple months ago he's like 'I've never done a Marvel movie'. I'm like 'you work harder than anybody I know, and you're 82'.
It makes you almost feel guilty if you're ever complaining about being tired. It's been a career highlight for me that I did not expect to have at this point in my life."
Jason: "Harrison and I both want this thing to turn out great, and we both work really hard and do our prep and all that stuff. But one of the things I learned from Harrison is that I really feel a sense of ownership and stress about it turning out well.
And I think one of the things that I've learned from Harrison is 'hey kid, you've earned the right to trust knowing that you're good at this, and it's going to be good. You don't have to be scared until it's good. You know it's going to be good. You've done all the work. You know you're good at this. Do your prep. Show up. Nail it. It's going to be good'.
That has been really helpful for me, because I'm sort of holding my breath until the finished product comes out and I like it. And I would enjoy myself a lot more in this job and in this life if I just had a little more ease about it always seems to work out. I still haven't bought that lesson yet. 'What if this time it doesn't?', you know."
On the Importance of Segel's Casting — and What He Can Convey with His Face That Doesn't Need to Be on the Page
Bill: "We talked a little bit about what the prototypes for my shows are. And he's such an inherently likeable actor.
I'll tell you something I haven't told everybody. We made it a joke in the writers' room. He's playing some heavy stuff, and the tendency for writers is to overwrite it, to have characters say 'I'm really sad' or to say 'that thing that you did hurt me'. And Jason, one time, one time only, we said 'do we have to write this line or can you do it with your face?' — and he's like 'oh, I can do it with my face'.
That has become shorthand in the writers' room. He's so good that we're like 'do we have to, can we go home, or do we have to write something here? It depends whether or not Jason can do it with his face'.
But even though it's a joke, I watch some of these stories play out on his face and see what he's doing. Man, he's so good. He's so good and such a talented writer and just a good guy. Don't tell him I said it, but I really like him."
On Segel Co-Creating and Co-Writing Shrinking, as Well as Acting
Jason: "It's interesting because that's been actually the majority of my career, is writing something and shepherding it from the beginning, and so I'm very comfortable and familiar with that idea. I think that one of the benefits it has, for this show in particular, is that I get to quarterback the scenes when I'm on set that I'm in, knowing what we're trying to accomplish from a more bird's-eye view than you have when you're an actor for hire.
I also love just being an actor for hire on projects where I do that. There's something very relaxing about it, because you're like 'most of this is somebody else's problem'.
But I think that when I'm on Shrinking, I feel very protective of it. And I want it to be great and I want to help my castmates shine, and I just love it very, very much."
On Families of Circumstance Sitting at the Heart of Lawrence's TV Shows, From Spin City and Scrubs to Ted Lasso and Shrinking
Bill: "Found family, definitely. Mentorship, definitely. Oh shoot, I just do the same thing over. No, I'm joking.
I cherish it in my own life. I was an only child. I built worlds around me of people that I loved and loved spending time with, and a family as well. And I think one of the things that maybe lay people don't know about Hollywood, because Hollywood's got a bad rap — deservedly so in some cases — but the positives are most people got in due to mentorship, and the best experiences people have involved found family and building a community on a show or a play or a movie.
I still spend time with the cast and crew of Scrubs, not because we're working together, but because I sincerely love them. And I'm only good at writing what I know. So it's either writing about that or writing about a guy who's deathly afraid of his wife.
She's so good. I'm just kidding. I'm just trying to get a laugh. She's awesome, man."
On Segel Always Drawing Upon His Personal Life, Whether He's Writing, Acting or Both
Jason: "I would say that everything that I participate in the writing process, or act in, is drawn from my personal life. It's the only way I know how to make art.
I don't think we manifest it out of nowhere. I think it's more about transmutation. Like, what comes in and then what do you turn it into? I don't think that the kind of grief that we're exploring needs to be specifically about having lost a partner. I think it's the same kind of grief we experience from a big breakup. I think it's the same kind of grief we felt after COVID when there was lost time, when all of a sudden two years of our lives were gone and we'll never get them back.
And so, yeah, there are moments in the exploration of Jimmy getting over losing his wife when I think about breakups, or I think about paths of my life that could have been taken that I didn't take, things that will never be that I really believed were going to happen. So I think it's all personal. That's the only way I know how to do it."
On Segel's Favourite Shrinking Character
Jason: "It may be surprising, but my favourite character is Derek, Ted McGinley's character, because to me, he is the best of us. He represents being unencumbered by doubt. He's just a guy who wants everyone to be having a good time. Don't sweat the small stuff.
I wish my life felt more like that. I wish that my life felt more like how Derek feels on a day-to-day basis. Like 'oh hey great, we get to take a drive today? Oh, hot dogs — great!' What a way to live, right?"
On What Gets Lawrence Excited About a New Project After Making TV for More Than Three Decades
Bill: "I think that the day that I'm not excited to get paid to write stories for a living, I will go teach and hang it up, because I don't need any extra juice to get me going. I'm so lucky to do this. The only other job I ever had was painting the houses, and I wasn't that good at it. And so I hope people know that I'm grateful every day.
I think the thing that makes me excited to do it now is I get to work with young people that want to get into this industry. I get to work with people that still show up and are like 'wow, a TV show!', and it's impossible to be cynical and jaded when you get to be around that.
I get to talk to people like yourself that, I would argue, would not be doing this unless they grew up as TV and movie nerds like I did, and wanted to talk about all this stuff.
I didn't expect to have a career renaissance in my 50s, but I'm going to ride it out as long as I can, and until people realise that they've made a grave mistake, and just keep having fun and working with friends."
Shrinking streams via Apple TV+. Read our review of season one.